#167 Letting Go of the Rules to Reclaim my Voice

Today, I interview John Briggs, who once believed that working harder and earning more was the ultimate measure of success, until the cost of that belief showed up at home.

He grew up as the youngest in a religious family, often singled out and bullied in his childhood. Making himself small felt like the only way to stay safe. Even in the workplace years later, that pattern repeated. His voice silenced under systems that rewarded overwork and discouraged questioning the norm.

The breakthrough came late one night, when John walked into his house at 2 a.m. and was met not with silence, but with his pregnant wife in tears. She told him she felt like a single parent. That moment shattered his assumptions about success and forced him to reflect on what he was really building, and who he was building it for.

Since then, John has taken real steps to change not just how he works, but how he lives. He’s created a new standard, one that honors presence, productivity, and the people who matter most. Today, he teaches others how to step out of the hustle and into a more harmonized way of working, where you don’t lose yourself in the process.

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John Briggs is widely recognized for his innovative approach to productivity and work-life harmony, encapsulated in his book The 3.3 Rule: The New Workday Standard of Creating More by Working Less. His approach has not only led to significant revenue growth for his company and clients but also promotes sustainable work-life harmony by combating the damaging hustle culture mindset.
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Find John here:
https://incitetax.com/

https://www.youtube.com/incitetax

https://www.instagram.com/incitetax/

https://www.facebook.com/incitetax

https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnbriggscpa/

Transcript

Transcript of Interview

Find Your Voice, Change Your Life Podcast

Podcast Host: Dr. Doreen Downing

Free Guide to Fearless Speaking: Doreen7steps.com

Episode # 167 John Briggs

“Letting Go of the Rules to Reclaim my Voice”

(00:00) Doreen Downing: Hi. Welcome to the Find Your Voice, Change Your Life podcast. I'm excited. Today I get to interview somebody that is brand new to me, and it feels like we're just, for the first time, sitting down and saying hello to each other and getting to know what this is about in his life.

In my podcast, I ask a lot of questions about the history of not having a voice, and then the journey to find it.

So I'm Dr. Doreen Downing, host of this podcast. I'm a psychologist, and I'm always curious about how people got to be who they are today. It's a puzzle to me.

I'd like to welcome John Briggs today.

(00:47) John Briggs: Thank you for having me.

(00:49) Doreen Downing: Yes, it's wonderful. It does feel like our first meeting. I kind of remember what it was like to go on dates and meet somebody out of an ad that I had put in the newspaper—this was years ago, before I think even the internet—and it was just like, okay, hello.

So, our first date, John. Let me read your bio, the short bio that you sent to me.

John Briggs is widely recognized for his innovative approach to productivity and work-life harmony, encapsulated in his book The 3.3 Rule: The New Workday Standard of Creating More by Working Less.

I'm going to say that again because that's really important. I want people to hear that. The new workday standard of creating more by working less.

I have to take a breath. That just really feels like it's so important.

His approach has not only led to significant revenue growth for his company and clients, but also promotes sustainable work-life harmony by combating the damaging hustle culture mindset.

Ah, yes. I love that. It sounds like something I’ve heard from Janine Boland. Do you know Janine?

(01:49) John Briggs: I don't.

Doreen Downing: She talks about the same thing I just read, which was, instead of work-life balance, it’s work-life harmony. That makes a difference. You wrote about mindset. It’s a different mindset when we think about our lives being in harmony.

I love it. Thank you for sending that bio.

So let’s get started with our time together. It’s about voice, and it’s about the struggle that you might have had early on in life. I always like to go back as far as I can, or as far as you're willing to go, to those early life moments.

Maybe just like, where were you born, what kind of family were you brought into, and what were some of the circumstances early on that shaped how you came to know who you were in that particular environment?

And then of course there’s school, and I know you mentioned something about that.

So, yes. Let’s get going. Who are you? Where did you come from?

(03:32) John Briggs: Yes, I’m going all the way back there. I was born in Southern California, lived there until I was 11.

Mom, dad, brother, three sisters. By the time I was born, my two oldest sisters were already out of the house with their own families. We were a religious family, the only family on our street that seemed to be religious. I remember that being weird, where they knew our faith and I got bullied not only for that, but just... the kid to be picked on.

So part of not having a voice—when you get bullied, one of the mechanisms is to try to make yourself small so you do not cause a lot of attention. You do not bring a lot of attention to yourself.

(04:27) Doreen Downing: Good point. Yes. And it sounds like you were the youngest in your family.

(04:34) John Briggs: I'm the youngest, yes.

(04:36) Doreen Downing: Yes. With all those siblings, some of them already maybe almost old enough to be your own parents. So, what was the circumstance of them just wanting another child? Or sometimes they talk about, “Whoops, here comes another one.”

(04:55) John Briggs: My mom is my dad’s second marriage. That was where most of that came from.

(05:03) Doreen Downing: Oh, yes.

(05:04) John Briggs: I, in fact, have nieces and nephews that are older than I am.

(05:08) Doreen Downing: Yes.

(05:09) John Briggs: And they loved it, especially when I was younger. “Oh hey, Uncle John.” It was like, “Yes, funny, ha ha, you’re ten years older than I am.”

(05:18) Doreen Downing: I do know that experience because my husband actually had a brother and three sisters. So, it was a large family and there were different ages. But I hear that there was a second marriage. Was the divorce that your parents went through happen way before you came along? You were the only child of his new—

(05:48) John Briggs: Me and my brother are. We have the same parents.

(05:52) Doreen Downing: Yes. Anything more about what that was like to have siblings?

(05:58) John Briggs: Didn't seem weird at all to me. I had two older siblings that also had kids. That’s just what I knew.

(06:07) Doreen Downing: Good. Well, that helps give us a snapshot of you coming into this world, and it seems pretty okay because it's not like you had to suffer something like a divorce, like a lot of people have had.

Was there anything about the relationship with your father or mother that you feel... I mean, I know religion is one way in which a family bonds together, especially if it's shared. But sometimes it can be kind of strict.

(06:48) John Briggs: I guess when you grow up with the same religion, you don’t necessarily look at it as, “Is this strict or not strict?” It’s just how we were raised. As a kid, it’s like, okay, logical—like, that’s a rule. It seems like a decent rule.

I don’t remember fighting too many of them. I think most of the rules I fought were the same that everyone does, religion aside—like, “I don’t want to go to bed.”

(07:23) John Briggs: “I don’t want to eat my dinner. I want to eat dessert.” Ice cream. Yes, exactly. Cookies. “Give me a sleeve of Oreos.”

(07:35) Doreen Downing: I know that one too. They always give a sleeve of Oreo cookies to my husband in his stocking.

(07:46) John Briggs: Probably loves it. I would love that.

(07:48) Doreen Downing: Yes. Actually, I might be hungry right now. My mouth’s watering.

Anyway, thank you for beginning to paint the picture of what early life was like for you. It sounds like it was pretty secure except for when you went out of this security called “family,” and people picked on you.

How did they even know it had something to do with religion?

(08:18) John Briggs: I do not necessarily know if that was the only reason. Of all the kids on this street—because back then, life was different, right? You played as neighborhood kids. We would play football in the street, tag, and just be out of the house all day long.

“Hey, we want to go to Del Taco,” which was like a mile bike ride away and you had to cross a busy street. It was like, “Great. Go have fun.”

So it was different back then. And I do not know if it was specifically because of religion or because I was one of the younger kids. I think there was only one other child on the street who was younger than I was in this group of kids.

I do not know if it was just because my nature is to make people annoyed. I do not know. When I think about myself as a kid...

I do not know why they chose me as their target, but I definitely was the chosen target.

(09:20) Doreen Downing: Okay. I am going to stay with this just a little bit longer because I know my listeners have spoken to me about that feeling of being...

I have not heard it called “chosen.” That is an interesting way to frame it—but to be the victim of this. And I had not heard about it being like a group thing too.

So, if you do not mind, could I hear an example?

(10:01) John Briggs: Sure. There are a few. The first one that comes to mind is the fake chocolate ice cream that ended up being dog crap. That was not very nice.

We would play a game—I cannot say what it was called back then because it is an offensive term—but the idea was that one person had the football, and everyone else would tackle that person. If you got tackled, then you would throw the ball up, and someone else would get it. You just went around tackling whoever had the ball.

They would often intentionally throw the ball at me, while they all knew I was the plan. Like, “Hey, let’s throw the ball at John and jump on John.”

I got in a couple of fistfights when I was a kid. More of their fists knocking out my teeth than me doing any real damage.

Those were some of the examples. Being a religious kid, they wanted to make sure I was educated on all the ways to swear. Which was fun, bringing those words home and having my mom wash my mouth out with soap and hot sauce. “Why are you learning these words?”

So those are some examples.

(11:22) Doreen Downing: Just out the front door. Yes, there are lots of them out there. Well, thank you. That was very, very specific, and I think that helps listeners understand what it is like to have a history like that and how it might affect your voice.

So when you did go off into school, off the neighborhood streets, did you feel like you were also a target at school, or did it feel safer?

(11:57) John Briggs: It did not feel safer. But I definitely kept quiet. I did not want to be good at anything. I did not want anyone to know that I... if I got good grades or did well on a test, please do not make it any sort of claim about a teacher.

(12:16) Doreen Downing: Yes. Ooh, yes. I can see how that would be. Yes. Like, “Oh, here’s our star student.”

(12:23) John Briggs: I did not want any attention whatsoever.

(12:25) Doreen Downing: I understand. Totally. Attention does not feel positive to you, and even the positive attention draws... who knows what.

So let’s just stay out of the center of attention. Let’s stay out of the limelight.

Okay. So you are moving along in life, more quiet, and we understand why. What happens next as you start to go through high school and then out into the next phase of your life? I do not know what that was.

(12:57) John Briggs: Yes, it’s interesting. California. Lots of people.

At 11, my dad retired as a school teacher. He taught in the LA school district and said, “I want to move to Missouri.” So at 11, he moved me and my brother and my mom and dad. At that point, all my sisters had already been married.

The four of us moved out to Missouri. Really, really small town. About 2,000 people. We lived six miles out of town. There were 70 people in my graduating class, about 300 in the high school. Super tiny.

It was such a small town that everybody knew we were the family who moved in from California. They knew we were building a house. They knew everything about us.

I always joke that the town was so small, people knew what I was going to do to get in trouble before I even thought about doing it. It was really small.

It was actually a flip of the script. Because I moved in from California into such a small town, suddenly everybody knew me. I had everyone’s attention.

(14:14) Doreen Downing: Limelight. There you are. You can't hide from that one. You can't say, “Don't look at me.”

(14:20) John Briggs: Yes. I don't know what I did. I just know the outcome. I ended up playing all the sports. I ended up being really popular, which is not hard to do when there are only 70 in your class and 300 in the whole high school.

Because there are a lot of small towns around and you play each other in sports, I found out later that there were people in other towns I had never met who knew who I was. They respected the fact that I at least appeared to be a young teenage boy trying to be a good kid.

There were plenty of people like that back then. I don’t know about now in small towns. But yes, it was a flip of the script.

So regardless of what I did, I had everyone's attention. I don't know. I haven’t thought about whether I leaned into it and said, “Well, let's just go all in.” Maybe that's why I decided to play sports.

I am competitive. I like to win. I don't like to lose. I don't know if that's the reason.

It certainly helps when you go to a small town. There are no tryouts. If you want to be on the team, they put you on the team. It doesn’t mean you get playing time, but there is not a lot of competition.

So it flipped the script in high school. I ended up being a big fish in a small pond.

(15:46) Doreen Downing: Yes. And I feel there was more of a freedom to be more expressed.

We’re talking about voice. Voice actually could be just the sound in words, but I think expression—and sports—could be a way that you express yourself. A place where you could be seen and heard.

Not only that, it feels like acknowledged. So that’s great. It felt like, wow, kind of an automatic healing that took place.

So, what happened next after school?

(16:26) John Briggs: So, high school. I ended up going to college. I went to BYU in Utah. They have an amazing accounting program, so I studied accounting.

BYU’s program is so good that in your junior year—most of us in that program were doing master’s degrees—you’re still a few years out from being employable. But in your second week of junior year, all the big accounting firms come in. The top 100 corporations come in and they interview you because they’re trying to lock you in that early as an accounting student.

I was fortunate. I didn’t realize that the accounting love I found matched with it being one of the best colleges to go to for it.

So I ended up getting a job and working with Deloitte for a little bit, which is one of the big four accounting firms. In fact, I think they’re the largest. We’re talking multi-billion dollar organization.

I went back to Orange County, California and worked with that office. And then—we can get into it—but we definitely had some experiences there about not having a voice.

(17:42) Doreen Downing: Yes. Do get it. Give me an—

(17:45) John Briggs: Yes. So, and I do not want to put this all on Deloitte. The other accounting firms do it, and then the smaller ones just want to copy them. This is just part of the problem in my industry.

But you're expected, because of deadlines for tax filings and audit financial filings, you have to work around all these government-imposed deadlines. So tax season is also closing of financial statement season. It doesn't matter what you're doing in an accounting firm, you're expected to work, to keep your job, at least 55 hours a week.

Keeping your job is one thing. If you want to get promoted, then you gotta go 70, 80 hours a week to get seen so that you get, “Oh, John, amongst all the people, like, hey, look at this hard worker, let's think about promoting him.”

Yes. Fifty-five is like bare minimum, keep your job. I'm just showing up to get— which is crazy, right? I mean, it's still 15 more than 40.

And in that office, which is like most accounting firms, clients have work, and then you have the employees. There's like two people out of an office of, say, 150 people, control the actual workflow. Especially as a junior-level accountant, I'm just assigned work.

And so if there's work to do, then I get it done. But if they've only given me one client folder to work on, if I finish that really fast, I am gonna be penalized because now I'm gonna have less billable hours than my other colleague who's less efficient, who maybe has a couple clients that's been assigned to him.

So I found most of my time during my breaks—if I had time off—I'm going into partners’ and managers’ offices like, “Do you have any extra work? Do you have any work? Can you assign anything to me?” I don't want to get in trouble for being more proficient than others.

So from a standpoint of a voice, you don't have a choice. “You're golden handcuffs” is a phrase that's used. In this case, it was the idea of getting golden handcuffs, because you certainly don't feel like you're super well-paid as a junior-level accountant. But you just keep your mouth shut, do what you're supposed to do, here are the rules of the game, and get on with it without, like, ask us for some feedback.

Because in that whole scenario, what I realized was the client suffers. My mentality was not unique. Everyone knew that if they had one thing to work on, they're gonna take longer on it, because they also didn't want to be penalized.

The client is the one who has to pay all those inefficient hours though. Like, why are we billing hourly?

So then you look into that, and I personally am not a fan of Karl Marx. He's the guy who created the labor, the hourly labor rate. It's a very communistic approach to labor.

Like, why aren't we billing on value? Why aren't we billing on, “If you want this done, this is gonna be the price. Period.” If it takes us one hour or ten hours, you get the same result, client.

Yes. So then we should be more efficient at it.

So anyways, that was just a little bit of experience with that firm that definitely felt like I didn't have a voice.

(21:18) Doreen Downing: Well, there have been lots of people that have been on my podcast that have worked for corporations, and sometimes they talk about it as if, yes, the golden handcuffs.

So it’s like they keep working in an environment that’s not the best or healthiest for them, or even... they’ve talked about it like being choked by the corporation.

So when you went like that, and it seemed like you didn’t have a voice there for sure, couldn’t speak up—how did you get from that to this, what I read earlier in the introduction, this harmonizing?

What was the wake-up, and what was the journey to discover how to harmonize life and work?

(22:09) John Briggs: Yes. So, Deloitte gave me a defining lesson. I then left there and ended up at a smaller accounting firm. They gave me 2% ownership in the company.

Learned some stuff there when it comes to also not having a voice. Because even though you're an owner, the people with more ownership outvote you. In this case, it became very nepotistic. There was a mother and a son who were the majority owners of the firm. They employed their daughter, who didn’t do any work.

I wanted to make sure the clients got taken care of. Learned some lessons on how to manage people there.

Also same deal though. They were just copying the Big Four Deloitte model. Like, “Hey, we gotta work all these hours,” without ever stopping to think—is there an alternative?

Then fast forward, I’m like, okay, this isn’t working out. So I go on my own. And also, like a moron, I’m thinking I’m supposed to work all these hours. But now I’m crushing it because look at all this money I’m making.

In fact, I discovered this magical formula. You’ll be so surprised by this formula of how to be successful: the more hours I put in, the more money I made. Because I could produce more tax returns. Oh my goodness.

Back in 2011, it's still just me. I’m a solopreneur. I’m coming home at about two o’clock in the morning. I’m trying to sneak in because I don’t want to wake up my wife, but she’s already awake. In fact, waiting for me.

We were married, and at that point we had two kids and she was pregnant with our third. She starts crying. She just has this mental breakdown.

Which I was kind of prepared for, because the previous tax season she also had a mental breakdown. So I’m like, oh great, okay.

I love my wife, so I didn’t say this out loud, but I’m thinking, I wish I had the luxury to have a mental breakdown. I’m exhausted. I’m trying so hard to provide for the family, and I’m working all these hours. But if I stop to have a mental breakdown, that’s one less return that doesn’t get done. That’s a consulting meeting I can’t bill for.

I’m thinking that—of course, I didn’t say it out loud—but then she hit me with this truth. She said, “The reality is, I’m a single parent right now.”

And I’m like, wow.

It was like God knocked me on the head. I was transported back to our wedding day. I’m looking into her eyes and we’re making promises to each other like, “I’m going to be here. I’m going to support you.”

Then I’m transported to the day in the hospital when she gives birth to our firstborn child. And I’m like, “I’m going to be your support through all this.”

And here she is now saying, “I’m a single parent.”

In my mind up until that point, I’m like, I’m crushing it. Life is great. Look how much money we’re making. We can do the things we want to do. I’m doing this all for you. I’m not doing it for me. I’m doing it for my family.

Guess what? The only thing your family is going to know is that you were never available.

They’re the only people who are going to know down the road that you worked so many hours. No one else you think you’re trying to impress is going to remember, because they don’t care. But your family does. And that’s why they’re going to remember—and not in a good way.

So that was the transition moment. I wish I could say I flipped a switch and immediately went into work-life harmony, but that began the journey.

I realized this is not a sustainable model. It’s obviously not working. Just money alone, or maybe status, if you look at what hustle culture wants to put off—those golden handcuffs—that’s one component of success.

I needed to start looking at the other elements. Like love, relationships, time to do things that you want to do, pursuing hobbies that are outside of work.

There are so many elements of success. It’s not just money or the title that comes with the money you make.

I had to learn those through my journey. And that got me into the science of how can we be more productive.

I initially wanted to write a book as a manifesto to the accounting industry. Like, “Hey guys, you’ve got to pull your heads out. Let’s change. We can change. We have to be the drivers of this.”

And Deloitte, if you don’t stop asking your team members to work 70 hours a week to get promoted, no one else is going to want to jump on board.

So I started thinking, how do I become significant enough that a Deloitte could look at what we’re doing and say, “That model seems to be working. His team members seem to be really happy.”

Which leads to higher employee retention. Which means less cost in replacing team members. Which means keeping smarter accountants in the industry. Because right now, we have them leaving the industry in droves.

That led to the journey. The manifesto turned into, “Wow, this is pretty cool science.” And then the science was like, “That’s a great, simple structure.”

Which is, effectively, work focused. Be completely focused when you work. But you can only do that for around up to three hours at most. It’s a range. It’s not a magic formula.

Some people might only be able to do 50 minutes at a time or an hour and a half. But for sure, only up to three.

And then, immediately following that focus block, take an intentional break where you don’t work. Where you don’t stimulate your brain with things that feel like work. Actually give your brain a rest—about 30 percent of the time you worked.

Then you’ll be able to come back to the next focus block energized and ready to go and be more productive.

If you do that—which we’ve found in our company—you get more work done.

So out of an eight-hour day, you’re actually only working six hours of focus. But if you take those two hours strategically as actual breaks, you can almost double your production.

Because the studies show the average worker is only getting in two hours and 52 minutes of productivity a day anyways.

(28:51) Doreen Downing: Yes. Wow. This is brilliant. And it’s so mind-challenging.

One of the things I realized as I’m listening to you and the experience of being in an environment that was oppressive—for you, for your health and wellbeing—is that in a way, it felt like those kinds of work environments are like bullying.

What I love is that you found your way out of the bullying. You did change. Very deep-seated... this sense of self that felt like he couldn’t stand up and say, “There’s a better way. Stop.”

You are the one who had to stop it, and you changed. And even though you said it wasn’t like flipping a switch like you did when you moved... you have, John. You flipped the switch.

And not only that, you’re out here now talking to me and all my listeners about another way.

So before we end today, this other way has to do with—what I’m hearing—is there’s a way in which we work three hours max and take these mindful breaks that have nothing to do with what we’re doing.

I’m going to get the book. I’m so excited I got to meet you today.

Anything else, before I need to stop, that you’d like to offer the people who are listening about how to live this particular kind of harmonious life-work balance?

(30:42) John Briggs: Yes. I think we have to realize that life... because everyone talks about work-life balance, right?

And as an accountant, it’s like, is that some sort of formula? Twelve hours of work and twelve hours for me? What does balance look like on a 24-hour day? It doesn’t work, and we have to accept that.

Also, chaos—or another way to say that that doesn’t have to be as dramatic—unplanned things happen in our life. That’s why we like to focus on the harmony aspect of it.

There may be a time in your life when you can have more time to your life. And there may be a time when you have to have more work. But the important thing is, the way we work needs to allow us to show up when we want to have our life time.

The time in our life shouldn’t be distracted by me continually thinking about work and the stress of work.

Taking these intentional breaks throughout the day allows people to show up a lot more. A lot of people, I feel like, it’s mixed. Some say, “Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I want to try it out.” Others are massively skeptical.

All I can say is, prove me wrong. If you’re skeptical, the only way for you to actually tell me I’m wrong is to try it out. And I promise, if you try it out, you’re going to find that it actually works.

And if you don’t believe me, metaphorically, think about vehicles. If you didn’t have brakes on your car, how fast would you be driving? Not very fast, because you’d have to rely on momentum to slow you down.

But we have brakes, which allow us to go fast and stop when we need to.

It’s the same way our mind works when it comes to breaks. Spelled differently, obviously, but when you focus and go fast—knowing you have a break coming up—you’ll find you can be more focused. Because mentally, you know you’re going to give yourself that reprieve when it’s done.

And then that reprieve is long enough for you to come back. To literally rinse and repeat.

Without that, you have people sitting with their butts in the seat from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM. By lunchtime, they’re foggy, phased out, easily distracted, checking Facebook or TikTok or whatever.

So just give it a whirl. Try it out.

If anyone wants to pick up the book, obviously selfishly, I think it’s pretty good. There’s a lot of good science in it. But if not, you can still try. Just work up to three hours. When you feel like you’re losing your focus, take a break.

(33:31) Doreen Downing: Yes.

(33:31) John Briggs: Then come back.

(33:32) Doreen Downing: Oh, I love it.

(33:33) John Briggs: You’re going to love it.

(33:34) Doreen Downing: I love it. And there will be a link in the show notes to the book. So we have both what you said and taught us today, as well as an opportunity for people to actually go get it and read it and find you.

Do you do consulting with folks?

(33:52) John Briggs: Yes, we do.

(33:54) Doreen Downing: Great. Well, we’ll make sure and help people find you, because I think it’s been fun for me today. And I think working with you would be fun for people.

You make this process of life change more fascinating, interesting, and doable. It feels like you’re saying, “It’s easy, folks. Prove me wrong.” That’s a great way to put it.

Alright, well thank you. Thank you.

We’ve been having a conversation with John Briggs, who has this whole idea, which can radically change not only our lives, but the lives of the people who are in relationship with us—who want more of us, not just the money that we might bring in for the many hours we work.

Thank you.

John Briggs: Thanks for having me.